There are other boards which talk a lot about doing the shades and trying to compete with the Home Depot prices. Back before Home Depot and Lowes there were the Korean shade people who made thousands a day of about the same quality. From a business point of view, one can not compete with them on any level and generally only hobbyists try to do that. I think that was the point Boris was making earlier.
The high end shades which are not often discussed or known about are the one which fill in for the Tiffany shades.
When I first started making shades to sell as apposed to my early shades which I gave away to friends & family, coming up with a price to sell them for was difficult. This was before we had such an influx of imports so other than some studio made shades I had nothing to compare mine to. So after attending a bunch or shows & craft fairs & doing an honest asessment of how mine compared to those made by others I came up with what I considered a fair price based mostly on the quality of my work.
I didn't try to compete price wise, sometimes I was higher & sometimes my price was a bit less but after seeing how fast my work sold I began adjusting the prices upward bit by bit especially so once the imports started showing at Home Depot.
I remember the first time a prospective client started comparing my price to those made in China & sold at Home Depot. Rather than be upset I calmly explained that the glass that I was using was of higher price as well as quality. I also explained the difference in the quality of my workmanship. She didn't get it & of course I lost her as a customer, big deal.
The next time that this happened I was ready with a shade that I had bought from Home Depot & one of mine that was the same exact design. I pointed out the difference in the quality of the soldering both inside as well as outside. I then showed the difference in hardware used & once I put both on bases & lit them to show the difference in glass quality the sale was made.
I still have those shades on the shelf under my workbench ready to pull out & demostrate these differences but frankly haven't needed to for several years now.
I know that my lamps are at the high end of the price spectrum, especially those that are of my own design but as they say "You get what you pay for."
Wayne, I agree with you, that only the beginner or hobbyists try to compete with the cheap imports & even they soon learned better than to try to do so.
I do lamp repairs. I haven't actually made a lamp in years. The latest lamp "repair"came about when a man brought a nasty old water fountain into the shop that he was going to throw away. There was a lot of brass and copper in it, so I told him to leave it with me. I intended to take it to the recycling center. Before I made it there, a man came in and said he loved it. He asked if he could borrow it and take it to someone he knew for him to look at. I was glad to have him haul it off. A few days later, he brought the part with glass back and asked if I could slump enough glass panels to replace the broken ones. He said that his friend is going to convert the fountain into a ceiling light fixture. So I started slumping and trying to put it back together. It is very dirty with a lot of calcium build up from being used as a fountain. It had that tiny brass came around the glass – you know the stuff that we can't find any more? It was not going on the new slumped glass well and I finally decided to switch it all out to new brass flexible edging. So now I have some of that narrow brass, but it is so dirty that I don't know if I will ever try to clean it and use it. That's the latest adventure in lamp repair.
Rebecca
Thats not "Dirt" now. Thats "Patina" or "original finish"
Can I anneal the brass in my kiln so it will be softer and easier to work with?
Rebecca, Brass is not a heat treated metal so applying heat to anneal it won't do much good. It is not like hardened steel where applying heat & then letting it cool slowly will remove the hardening treatment.
You could heat the brass to the softening point but then you'd have to work it while it was that hot as to be near the melting point because as it cools it will regain it's hard properties.
Graham, I once did a lamp via the internet for a customer in Col. we exchanged emails for serveral weeks before he Fedexed me a check for the deposit. He insisted on flying to New York to pay the balance & take delivery of the lamp. He then bought an extra ticket so that the shade rode home with him in the next seat.
I have to wonder it he would be able to do that today?
i once took a 2'x3' leaded panel as carryon. ran it through the xray and had all the scanners come over to see what it looked like. that was back when they still had coat hanger lockers in planes, about 1991 or so. i doubt that glass would be allowed in the cabin now.
I show the finished product (and my times work in progress) on two sites sometimes but never post them for long periods of time.
Most clients demand privacy while a few want to show them (shades and windows) off.
Maybe I have, on Warners? just dont remember it enough to picture it in my mind. Its been a while. .
Maybe my clients are weird, since no one has ever even mentioned "privacy" or requested that I show it to no one. Frankly, I consider that to be weird.
As far as not posting pictures for fear of being copied, I never felt that way. Maybe I am too willing to share my work, and help others, even if they wanted to make one like I made, original or not. One picture is worth a million words.
My outlook on this is, that anyone can build anything or be anyone on Internet with a few words. Pictures narrow that down.
You may have seen then on and off on WC's site as well. Usually I post there when I am helping others with their stuff. WC has an interesting site which allows me to have an impromptu tutorial for one or more people sending me similar emails. It saves time and keeps the talk from public distractions. Sometimes it becomes a lot of work too.
I do think we have much different stained glass clients though. When I had my store, I serviced as many clients as I could to keep the employees working and the doors open. We did tons of panels, windows, and ceilings and hardly any shades. Back then we created the average stained glass things for the general public. They are the ones who buy the bathroom windows and the Lowe's shade for their kitchens. It was a life and it was the type of stained glass that kept the industry moving. As the tradition evolves, I have moved into another layer of glass working and don't have the time nor the will to create anything similar to the 'shop' days. The clients back then had no problem with pictures of their purchases being placed in flyer's or on the walls of the shop because they were proud of 'their very own piece' (and should be!). The 'weird' clients of today spend ten times the amount for a piece to get ten times the product and don't want people knowing where their collection lives. It must be nice to have that problem! Back then the average bathroom window was $200 – $500 and one could get a nice colored glass window equivalent to the outputs of GlassEye and such. Now a companion window or door insert, for example, to the 18" Wisteria shade begins at $3800. I consider myself to be lucky to make it to this layer and still succeed as a full time profession.
The 'weird' clients of today spend ten times the amount for a piece to get ten times the product and don't want people knowing where their collection lives. It must be nice to have that problem! Back then the average bathroom window was $200 – $500 and one could get a nice colored glass window equivalent to the outputs of GlassEye and such. Now a companion window or door insert, for example, to the 18" Wisteria shade begins at $3800. I consider myself to be lucky to make it to this layer and still succeed as a full time profession.
Wayne, I agree & one of the nicer perks of having reached this level is the fact that one doesn't need to advertise or be involved with self promotion.
Word of mouth recommendations from these types of clients to their close friends is more than enough to ensure more commissions from those who can readily afford to pay your price. With this type of client most negotiations revolve around the design, once this is settled & the price is quoted they will commit to the job. Unlike before when I had a studio with employees & made mostly windows & door inserts, those clients seemed to always want to argue price.
Today without the large overhead & employees to pay & try to keep busy I no longer feel the need to negotiate price, the price as quoted is the final price. But as I said earlier most of my current clients are not really interested in price as long as they get what they want.
The most often repeated words that I hear now when I quote a price is, "whatever, will 50 percent be enough of a deposit & when will my shade be finished?"
I do think we have much different stained glass clients though.
Not really. This is a hobby to me, and I have a very well paying full time job. I do, however, have a lot of regular clients, who are high end Antique Dealers, Collectors, and Businesses. When they deal in lighting, its names like Duffner, Wilkinson, Pairpoint, Handel, and Tiffany. If they need attention, I get them. No one asks how much it costs to fix them, and I dont give estimates. You either want it done or not. The windows I repair are mostly from one client, a multi million dollar family, with several Restaurants, and holdings in several foreign countries, decorated in real Antiques and windows one would kill for. I do not advertise, do not solicit work, rarely take any new clients, and stay 6 to 8 months behind in work. I do take a piece of work just for fun sometimes, or as a favor for someone, but I can do that, as a hobby, since I do not have to do this for money at all. Its a hobby I enjoy.
The few private customers I do have, are occasional, but mostly repeat clients also. There are several Doctors and Lawyers, two Ambassadors, and some plain old, folk that are strapped for cash, with a family heirloom that someone broke. I have been know to do some of those for free.
I have no desire to build lamps or shades for a living, no matter what I could get for them. Could have done that years ago, and made everything I needed here, from raw materials, and genuine old original hardware. I make my own replacement parts for repairs now, including rings and wheels. I can make anything from a faceted cut or pressed jewel, to a decorated wheel cut glass side panel, and much more. I also repair and re-cut high end leaded glass crystal for my regulars. That's more than enough for me. I leave making reproduction shades to others, who have nothing else to do. I would not even attempt to sell anyone a 3800.00 dollar reproduction. Not the reputation I want. I let you guys do that. I like what I do. I am also just finishing updating my engravers bench. I did some decorative hand engraving, using hammer and gravers, for a few special jobs, and am upgrading to a Gravermax air engraver, and added a Zeiss stereo zoom microscope to work under, among other things. If I get bored with all of this, I have about two hundred original bent panel lamp shades, and bases, and a variety of other original lighting fixtures I can drag out of storage and fix for fun, and then resell, if I feel like it. All it takes is a phone call to a client. They wait for them.
So, as you see, our clients are not that different, other than mine want the real thing, and not reproductions. Never thought of it as a quest for reaching certain levels, or a contest to see how much money one can make. Its just fun to me, supports what new equipment I want to add, or where I want to go to play. Thats what a hobby is for. I guess I would be considered by some to be on a higher level than when I started this, but its not because I climbed there, Its because I may have been pushed higher by my clients or friends. Anyway, I am quite happy on my level, where ever that may be.
Boris, I do think what you are doing is what you should be doing. It is good that you have found your niche and are able to maintain your regular job. I don't see how you can repair the Tiffany shades though. I stopped doing those in the 90's. I could not afford the insurance to house them while I had them in my care when they were worth more than my shop back then and my house now. Back then I was paying $300 – 400 per sq ft for the Tiffany glass if I could find a match and now it is over $600 a sq inch. Though I can electroplate to match the original patina and even do the gold dore finish, it is too risky to have the shades in my house.
I am also just finishing updating my engravers bench. I did some decorative hand engraving, using hammer and gravers, for a few special jobs, and am upgrading to a Gravermax air engraver, and added a Zeiss stereo zoom microscope to work under, among other things.
Ernie said:
Engraving is something that I've always wanted to try my hand at but there never seemed to be enough time. Whenever I take up something new I really get super involved in it, the wife says that I become obsessive, she could be right.
I'm a collector, custom made knives, swords as well as some antique ones & I also collect antique firearms, the best in my collections are highly engraved. Some also have gold & silver inlays. When looking at the plain Jane knives I've often thought if only I could add engraving to them it would not only enhance their beauty it would also add value.
I have had a couple of pocket knives engraved but as you know Boris this is very expensive so until I can get around to learning how to do it for myself most will have to wait.
When it comes to doing glass the 3 of us have seemed to have found our niche, for you Boris it's repairing while Wayne & I love creating new lamps. I have another friend who does both & is rather renowned for repairing some of the best ever created. These are windows some of which now reside in museums.
Actually, I make more windows than shades and this year I tried to push the shades ahead of the windows (gotta have sales too). The year ends in a few weeks and I do not know where I stand but will count the paper work soon. My guess is the windows have won since I began adding a mosaic with the shades and losing more time with that thing.
Boris, I do think what you are doing is what you should be doing. It is good that you have found your niche and are able to maintain your regular job. I don't see how you can repair the Tiffany shades though. I stopped doing those in the 90's. I could not afford the insurance to house them while I had them in my care when they were worth more than my shop back then and my house now. Back then I was paying $300 – 400 per sq ft for the Tiffany glass if I could find a match and now it is over $600 a sq inch. Though I can electroplate to match the original patina and even do the gold dore finish, it is too risky to have the shades in my house.
Haven't you been in glass about 9 years now?
About 8 or 9 years now. Other hobbies helped speed up the learning curve. Painted for 4 or 5 years, carved decorative wildfowl for 5 or 6 years. and made engraved and deep acid etched decorated knives, for a few. Could have made a nice living on either of those, and was always backlogged a year or more, but did not want to do either as a job. I did well enough as a Parts and Service Director in GM Dealerships. Also, I already had the metalworking skills, like welding, soldering, machine shop operations, and so forth. I picked up casting, electroplating, tin/coppersmithing, and whatever I was lacking.
When a hobby becomes a business, you no longer have the option to set your own pace, and take as long as it takes to do a job your satisfied with, or just quit a while if you feel like it. The pressure is on to get out the product, find sales, and can lead to a product that is just "good enough" instead of the "best you can do." That's not acceptable to me. A couple of years ago, I did a couple of extensive repairs on two oil lamps, very rare, and very ornate. I did them for a high end Dealer, that had sold them to the Smithsonian Institute. He disclosed the repairs before the sale, and they accepted them. The Director of Procurement, or whatever he was, wanted to call me, and arrange to see my repair facilities, and techniques. The Dealer did not give him contact information, as I had requested prior to this, but said he would forward the business card, and request. He tried twice, but I never called him back. For one, I had a "Hobby Shop" not a facility. Also, I had more than enough work, and did not have the time to fool with him. You can do that when its a hobby. When it becomes a job, and stops being fun, I find a new hobby, regardless of what I make doing it. You can do that when its a hobby.
I dont get that many Tiffany shades. Somtimes a couple a year, and maybe not another one for a year or so. Same for Tiffany bases that need repairs. Usually its a metal repair, but there has been a couple of glass repairs. I got lucky on both of those, and had the glass to match. Years ago, when I first got into this, I found a couple of broken mashed and mangled windows in Lancaster PA, at an antque joint, outside, in a old metal wash tub. At least 75% of the pieces that where there, had been broken in severla places and a lot of the pieces where missing. Looking it over, I was intrigued by the glass itself and thought it may be fun to use in a future project, bought it, and put it away. When I got the first shade for repair, I went through every piece of glass I had, and everything my suppliers had, or could get. No luck, no match to satisfy me. Close, but no cigar. I gave a sample of the broken piece to a Antique Dealer client of mine, who said he could get me the real glass, and I started also, looking through my old glass, from takeouts, and past repairs. I found the exact glass I needed in the pieces I had bought out of the old wash tub. Ironically, the Dealer also came through with another piece to match.
As far as Insurance goes, I have what I call the "Hobby Advantage." I explain its a "Hobby" shop, I do not really want the job, to start, I have no insurance, nor do I intend to buy any Insurance, so if I agree to attempt a repair, whenever I feel like doing the repair, you buy your own insurance, or take the shade and move along. So that part is easy. The procedure is listed under "Hobby Options"
Can I anneal the brass in my kiln so it will be softer and easier to work with?
Rebecca
You can soften it and copper by heating it and dropping it in cold water. Just the opposite of steel. However, if your working it, by bending, forming, or hammer, it hardens again, and the process has to be repeated.
I once did a lamp via the internet for a customer in Col. we exchanged emails for serveral weeks before he Fedexed me a check for the deposit. He insisted on flying to New York to pay the balance & take delivery of the lamp. He then bought an extra ticket so that the shade rode home with him in the next seat.
I have to wonder it he would be able to do that today?
There are people out there like that. I repaired a family hand me down, Handel Shade for a lady who was Ambassador to Finland, or some place like that, and she was supposed to pick it up at the Antique Shop I got it from, in time for Xmas. I assumed she picked it up, and found out later, that she had sent a Van from a private Courier Company, in New York, 200 plus miles, one way, just to pick up this shade, and deliver it to their Terminal at Kennedy International, to be packed and put on a private Courier flight to whatever Country this lady was in.
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